Pardon my ignorance from possibly missing something mentioned somewhere at sometime that i just happened to miss due to my absense that seems to continuously interrupt my posting and existance on this ver' board at times, but have there been any discussions in relation to who/what's wearing the Big Bad pants this season?
Also: when is mid season ending exactly? because i heard the 31st, yet that seems awful near for something that's currently moving so ver' slow and having to travel through the christmas rush, of which the conclusion of would pretty much be the end of the mids... apparently.... i don't know :oops: stop looking at me like i'm strange and have two heads or someth... oh wait... i do :P :P hehe
anywho-dillys, i'm hoping some form of what i was trying to say was conveyed... if not, i apologise sincerely. but if so ^_^ i give you the almighty...:
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Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
Let me propose that part of the problem there is something that has dogged us a while: lack of communication. I look at this mainly as writing now, which has some advantages and disadvantages. One of them is simply this - you can conceal things even from your fellow authors, but there were some times when we let it get in the way of the story.
The worst thing we can do is to conceal a major plot point, particularly on something that needs to be investigated. Meaning that if you have a way to solve problem x, it's not always enough just to say "don't worry about it." It's entirely possible you'll end up getting someone come up with a plausible way to also solve x independent of your solution.
Not so bad with a sub-plot. Bad with the season plot. Pelor comes to mind and Heather running around telling everyone about him on MSN, and her remark of, "That's what I get for trying to be artistic."
Writing and RPing are both collaborative processes but I think we lean more to the former than latter. Which means that we can't really conceal vital bits of overall plot from each other. Vaugeness hurts the process.
Outlines can be usefull, in a way. But it's always communication that has been our traditional problem. The devil is in the details. To use Dave's outline as an example, let's look at week 11: New ally is not your ally... suckers.
How do we find this out? We now have enough writers that it would not surprise me to find 3 of us all comming up with (and bouncing around) 3 different ideas. Obviously, they all can't work. If 3 of us only tell one or two other people (like I usually do with my subplots, maybe 4 at the most), we don't have the information necessary to function as a community.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
Now that I have more time, to continue some of the previous remarks. I have a theory about some of our lack of communication.
There are, in essence, two ways in which we have to approach each other: as part of the audience reading the story, and as co-authors of a collaborate story. This is all well and good, except that I think we tend to favour the former over the latter to our detriment.
Sometimes this doesn't cause problems - because parts of what we do affect everyone as part of the plotline directly. Other times, we have people who are not a main part of the plotline, but may hear about it or play a minor role (say, a scene or two, which may contribute to different plotlines, but not let either character in on the whole thing). Sound confusing? Hope so; because the situation we have is confusing in many ways.
More and more, especially while reading all of these books on writing, I've been approaching things more from the co-author than audience angle (which explains why I may seem short tempered sometimes with wink, wink). The thing is, from each perspective, there are different amounts of information necessary to communicate beforehand.
From the co-author angle, we need the general structure of the plot. We need at least some details. For instance, the identity of fake ally - perhaps not his or her true identity, but at least to know, in writing, that this person is not a real ally. Potentially also where the Hellmouth is, depending on if it has an even stronger local effect - say, if it's going to show up in Tash's bedroom and in that area, as it moves, will cause things to fly around at random, that's information at least Heather (and anyone who goes into her bedroom) needs to know.
Less is needed as an audience member. The audience doesn't need the full outline at the start. And yes, this all has a point. To expand on one of Dave's remarks:
It's a question of how much everyone is involved. I happen to like the particular twist, if we can do it well enough - but also to question when we're going to reveal it to the audience. And how this person becomes the real enemy.
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New comments. Because I'm on a roll. :)
Actually, one thing I liked about the Hellmouth-moving plot is that, at least initially, it is not an apocolyptic threat. I'm reminded of an exchange from Buffy.
"What's happening?"
"Oh, the end of the world."
"Again?"
If the Doomsday Scenario is all we do, irregardless of the mechanism, things get old. Just a thought that, sometime in the future, I'd like to do something where the Big Threat(tm) isn't the-end-of-civilisation or the-end-of-all-life-on-earth. The Death of the White Hats, or LA In Chaos could also be good.
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Moving on to season five in specific. I still like the idea of Hellmouth-moving/generation of evil as the threat. Here's the thing, though. We can do things with smaller "teams" to handle this. There's nothing that says that a mini-bad has to be something that only one person faces.
Mostly also because it's not an end of the world/civilisation scenario. Consider, we've had:
Season One - Cloch Cosan. Apocalypse.
Season Two - Evil Entity. End of World as We Know It.
Season Three - Brotherhood. End of Civilisation.
Season Four - Ambrose Delancre. End of Civilisation.
Season Five is... what? Do we have to threaten the world or civilisation? We can just threaten LA. Or part of LA. Or - and this is what I prefer - the White Hats. And of course, all groups have priorities.
Majestic 12 has US National Security as its priority (they've probably handeled an apocolypse or two in their day). The Ministry of Magic has... er... something. I'm not sure what. The Order of Valour has strength through conflict. The Demon Police has a kind of enforced ethics in the occult world. The Illuminati has guiding the world to Englightenment - oops, wrong game.
I propose that our priority isn't the World, though it happens to work out that way. Instead, our priority is LA. We're the local group of Good Guys who hang out in a Mystical Hotspot to Fight Evil. So, why not do something which is more centred on the city?
It's more work to have a bunch of mini-bads. It puts off learning about the Hellmouth movement until later in the season, and probably has us facing more localised threats - which may come after a specific person who, on their own, doesn't have the ability to handle it. Or perhaps the necessary knowledge.
We can still have someone hiding in the background as a 'generator' of evil. Maybe this mystery evil is taking advantage of the situation to organise evil. He doesn't even have to become apparant at the end of season (though I would propose, if we're going to have a multi-seasonal plotline, that in our capacity as co-authors, we know more about the mystery organiser in advance).
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
I think that deserves a standing ovation. Really Adam, that nailed everything perfectly. :banana?:
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
Ummm...Dave, if you're talking about what I think you're talking about (ie, mine and Shaun's BB plot ideas), then they were for the season after next (which would be Season Six) I beleive (Shaun, help me out here...).
Otherwise, I'm intimidated by the large blocks of posts Mr. Half-A-Decade-In-Uni posted :P Seriously, though, I want to read them when I can think about them and not have to worry about going to my next lesson in...damn, 5mins :cry:
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
small question would the less humans of the white hats feel that the hellmouth is movieng and if so why would they not no what it is ?
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
IMO it would be an instinctual feeling, like rats running to flee a sinking ship or dogs barking at an evil presence. I guess more 'sensitive' folks would be the first to notice something, I sense a tremor in the force young Skywalker. :lol:
It makes sense that those who are connected to the earth force or whatever you want to call it that would be effected would sense when there is a change. Even then it doesn't have to be explicits, it could just be like you know something is happening but not what, it's just a gut-feeling.
That's not to say just those who are magically inclined would notice it, and I guess inately evil creatures would sense something kind of like the mothership calling them home. And even then, unless you've got some experience of living on a Hellmouth you might not recognise it.
Anyway, that's my thought on the matter.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
Ok, so this is way off the topic, but I was so upset reading this over breakfast that I've logged in at work - something I never do - in order to reply.
Adam, you've been on and on and on about this Pelor thing for months now. Just... get over it.
At the time, there were something of the order of six or so people who were fully involved in the Pelor part of the plot. Normally that's enough so that everyone gets to find out about something. So no, I didn't specifically tell you about it, thinking it would get to you on the grapevine. But as soon as I found out that you and Lou were looking at doing something to achieve a similar end, I let you know all the details. And really, it goes both ways, doesn't it? Did I get all upset and harp on at you because you didn't tell me about your plans earlier??
So please don't try to make out that I was concealing major plot points. The only part I kept secret was that Tash would think she'd killed Pelor - hardly a major point. As for the rest... it was out there. It seems only your feelings have been wounded because I didn't specifically send an e-mail to everybody on the board to tell them of the plot. Hmm... did you tell everyone about your parts in the plot? No? Gee, maybe we should get all upset at you in turn and harp on at you about it?
No? Seems silly, doesn't it? Well then, maybe it's time you stopped being silly at me.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
Actually, it doesn't seem silly to me. When it involves uncovering stuff, I probably should have told more people what my plans were - especially if it involves finding and disseminating information. Never claimed that I wasn't guilty of lack of communication.
And I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. It's just that this is something that sticks out in mind as the first example. Yeah, I didn't hear things on the grapevine. There's also a longer explanation that I typed out and had to delete, because I'm too paranoid to do so. Will send PM.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
Without sounding too much of a new age hippy here... I think maybe we should try to take a step back and not take this whole thing too seriously. I agree that when it comes to plots that effect a large majority of the group - communication is key, sometimes that goes well and we don't have any problems, obviously sometimes it breaks down and tempers get frayed and people get upset but we just have to learn from our mistakes.
I like how Dave drafted a tentative structure for season five. (As for season six lets just leave off that for a moment lol) It's an idea we had during season four to help us to keep everyone moving in the same direction. (It also helps to be able to see the finishing post.) Perhaps when we get a little closer to Season Five we should try to plan when the time jumps should be aswell?
On a personal note, I get worried when it's suggested we should hammer out a season like it's a military manouvre. Yes Season Four rambled on alot (I did alot of my own rambling) though I do think it's unfair to label it as 'waffle' since there was alot of excellent writing that took place. As much as a role-playing game, it is a creative process and so long as people aren't just writing their own stories with no regard to the over-arching theme (in-season of course) then there shouldn't be a problem.
I don't know about team spirit, right now there seems to be alot of team anamosity and it really isn't a nice feeling. I don't want to lose what we've built up here in terms of friendships and literary comradery. We should be proud of what we have instead of poking at its flaws. As I've probably said way too much already, this is supposed to be FUN, not a headache and at the moment I feel the latter of the two coming on. :?
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
No animosity, no guilt trips and no anger. I'm neither frustrated nor am I trying to point fingers. Heck I should point one at my own fat lazy ass for writing a grand total of ...um...4 posts i think when It should have more like 14.
No, don't misconstrue my (what was it Sid called it...) Stern tone with being mad or upset. I am trying to set an attitude for our players to stop and reflect; think and plan; preserve the flavor of our collaborative effort without compromising our own personal stories.
I want Season Five to be a growing experience our group not the same ol' thing.
I want to see Season Five bee worthy of being not only a good place ofr newbies to start learning about the world of LABN but something that will compell them to start reading it.
I want to see Season Five be a machine that appears with regular updates from everyone without having flooding and droughts of posts.
And that will take discussion, planning, and a commitment to the creative process.
Imagine, if you will, the Mutant Enemy conference Table where Joss, Jane, Marti, David Fury, Ben Edlund and company are sitting around and asking themselves "What do we do this season?"
The doubtless throw out a lot of ideas that get canned, trashed, lost, set aside as the wrong tone for the season, watered down, blown up, and generally mutated from the original pitch.
That's where we are now. We have some ideas on the table and we are hacking them into a structure. And, it hurts to say it, some of the ideas are gonna get (see list above) along the way.
Every year must be a challenge to approach or else it isn't growth. So if some of you (myself included) are feeling a sting...that's pride. To quote Pulp Fiction "That's pride fucking with you. Fuck pride. Pride only hurts, it never helps."
What we do during the midseason we do for pride...that's midseason. For the season we do it for each other and that's love, children.
I love you all, and I want to share that love ni the creation of something fucking awesome!
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
My thoughts are quite different. I'd say nobody can detect it's presence. It can be prophisied, alluded to, regognised by its effects but not ever really detected. Very few of the residents of Sunnydale (supernatural or otherwise) were able to detect the hellmouth. Even Giles with his enormous brain only theorized it until he had proof positive.
At best, it is like Global Warming. We only know about it indirectly by the effect it has on our climate, water levels, etc. It isn't something you can point a finger to and say "See? Global Warming is here!" But you can say, "It must be Global Warming to blame for this."
Same for the Hellmouth, short of GOD LEVEL magic you would not be able to detect the presence of a Hellmouth. Although you might realize that supernatural activity iof the vil sort is on the rise. You might find yourself drawn to do strange things with no explaination (like torturing puppies, f'rinstance).
But no magical, natural, supernatural, angelic, or mortal means are possible to detect it, IMHO...short of a DIVINE INTERVENTION.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
But that's what I was saying. If there's a rise of supernatural activity or you feel a compulsion to do things you wouldn't normally, then you are on some level sensing a change even if you don't register it consciously. If a flock of demons suddenly descend on Los Angeles because they've been drawn there (as lots of various nasties did in Sunnydale) then it becomes a matter of instinct of which you have no control rather than a percieved and understood feeling.
That was my overall point at any rate.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
I guess what threw me on your analogy was that I could hear the followup line on that "tremor in the force"...
"...as if a thousand voices cried out in terror and was suddenly silenced."
Obi-Wan knew what caused his tremor. And while we might feel something in the presence of a Hellmouth there isn't any way to identify it unless...as you pointed out...you had lived on a Hellmouth.
It took Mayor Wilkins 100 years to build Sunnydale into the Demon-haven it was. The effect is likely quite subtle. It wasn't until just before (and after) he had ascended that the real trouble began with people trying to open it and stuff.
Granted, Buffy was a big a magnet for trouble as the Hellmouth...sort of a double-whammy. But so are we, eh?
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
Just a little note: If you cant sense the Hell Mouth, What about Willow at the beginning of Season 7 when she senses it?
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
Well, by the time she gets to Season 7 Willow is so incredibly powerful that she can be considered to be using god-level magic - which, as Dave suggested, is about what it takes to detect a Hellmouth directly.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
Kind of makes you wonder at what, exactly, is supposed happen with one of them. Thing gravitating to a Hellmouth shouldn't be surprising, because you're supposed to have all sorts of mystical energy comming together.
I'm thinking with the instinctual sense that Louisa was talking about, it's not like, "Hmmm. The mystical fields have changed around here."
Closer to, "Hmmm. Something odd is going on. And why are there more demons showing up? And why did Steve just create an even worse Reality T.V. show than normal?"
One thing I want to point out, though. About people trying to open it only after Mayor Wilkins ascended. Are we forgetting about the Master? And the Sisterhood of Jhe? :)
It's doubtfull than any of us will have nearly the sensitivity enough to know what's going on exactly instinctually. The effects probably will be subtle - demons and all probably get drawn to a hellmouth because of the power involved, and they tend to be more attuned to magical power. It's like the Hellmouth makes a suggestion which the demon accepts, but simultaneously believes to be his own idea.
Just some thoughts on indirect evidence.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
I agree with Adam, definitely. I don't think it's going to be a case of "oh, I sense a Hellmouth over there". It should be more like we notice a gradual increase in demonic/supernatural activity - but we shouldn't instantly think "oh, right, that must be because of a Hellmouth". There are lots of different reasons for such increased activity.
Is the Order of Valour up to something?
Are the two surviving members of the Brotherhood plotting some nefarious revenge against us?
Is some new super-demon raising an army to take over the world?
Is some mystical energy leaking into our dimension from some artefact and causing the weirdness?
Is someone in the process of summoning Cthulhu/Proserpexa/Dukal/etc, etc, into the world?
Ad infinitum...
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
you mentied my evil bad guy! i love you ! :D
Re: Lou's Rather Long Explanation...
Okay I'm posting this up here because there are a few details that I need to get clear before we get into Season 5 and people get all stroppy saying that I didn't mention it before. (Like that hasn't happened before :wink:) Anyway, I'm refering back to a long description of my sub-plot with the Ministry when I first proposed the idea of the Hellmouth relocating to Los Angeles. While I'm open to changing/altering my initial ideas there are certain things that I NEED to at least be able to happen in order to finally finish my story (which lets face it, I've been running in the background since Season 3, so please cut me some slack! lol!)
Okay, this is where we're at now I guess with Shaun's idea for the Black Hats. I've also talked to Christope about an idea he's knocking around that is of a similar thread - ie character utalising the power of the Hellmouth for their own ends both of which I think have merits and could work pretty well.
I know Dave has said that the Hellmouth won't be opening, that's not to say that a BB won't TRY. And as part of my original idea with the Ministry there HAS to be a direct threat to civilisation as a result of the reemergence of the Hellmouth - loosly this is a plot *SPOILER* but the direct threat will be the Ministry's entire purpose for being in Los Angeles. Hence why I moved from the Hellmouth opening to it merely being in an intangible state of flux as it moves and resettles - personally I don't see WHY that should be a problem. It escalates the threat and creates a need for an intervention without the world coming to an end.
I'm repeating this in case there are any cries of 'you can't do that' in regards to the Ministry tracking the movement of the Hellmouth and its re-emergence. Just like Dave has revealed plot elements that aren't open for discussion I'm afraid THIS is one of those. People have recently said and I agree that a single person wouldn't notice the effect of the hellmouth when it 'arrives' I'm not saying there would be any arguement but I want to put this out there just in case there is. My entire sub-plot has already been built on this so it can't be changed. Any grumblers out there just console yourselves with the knowledge that this is an agency that has many increadibly powerful seers and mages in its employ. I can include as many scientific or magic related reasons that people can make up and throw at me for this (or heh, I'll make them up myself :wink:) But it's not really negotiable. Sorry.
I'm repeating this incase anyone is worried about the Hellmouth as the source of LA's supernatural wigginess (-technical term there) is revealed too soon. It won't be, depending on how much I write in midseason I may not even have them return to LA until midway through. There will be a perfect opportunity to discover all this. (Aww, I really don't want to be too explicit even if you can guess until I at least get some more of midseason out of the way, but you can pm me if you're interested.) But apart from that the Ministry won't be making their presence known, unless it's necessary.
This is the 'something' necessary idea I had. There could easily be others but this appeals to me for the reason that it takes the Ministry down a peg or two, Oh yeah, and I can cull lots of NPC's that I won't need after season five :twisted:
Anyway, I thought I'd repost my initial 'plot' and reasons for doing it that way. There weren't any reactions or objections so I don't see why there should be any complaints now, but in light of the recent antagonisms I just thought I'd better repost.
And now... I'm bowing out for the moment. If you managed to read all the way through, Go You!
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
*looks at posts above*
Er... is there a Cliff Notes version of this topic? :?
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
Remember our talks about Hellmouth Metaphysics and the thoughts I had?
We don't need a BB, I suggested (in private) because we were dealing with an irregular Hellmouth moving. Hellmouths are just confluences of lots of energy. But this time... well... something is going wrong. With the way the currents are shifting to account for Sunnydale going bye-bye, this Hellmouth is going to overload.
Think of it like redirecting streams into a lake. Only you redirect lots and lots of streams, and the others don't have enough time to go. It would be bad. Maybe not end-of-civilisation level, but end-of-california level. Or it can be upped to there being so much energy in this one that it literally needs help to settle into place.
Basically, my thought was that there would be Something Bad(tm) happening just because of the mystical energies involved, and not someone in particular trying to manipulate the situation.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
That all sounds fine to me, Lou. I had most of your initial posts in the back of my mind, but it's good to see everything laid out in a logical sequence like this.
I have no issue at all with the Ministry spending lots of resources on trying to track the Hellmouth and therefore having at least a vague notion of where and when it might re-emerge. They do have access to the types of resources necessary to perform such a feat. Given their secrecy, I don't imagine they'll be wanting to blurt out the Hellmouth's location to the White Hats in the very first post - so having the Ministry know something about it still should leave us all nicely in the dark for a good portion of the Season.
I just didn't want a bunch of PCs suddenly deciding that they could 'sense' it or cast a spell to pinpoint it or somesuch. So far as our player characters (and most of our NPCs) go, the most we should notice is some vague sense of unease (or desire to up the level of nastiness, for the evil ones) on the non-physical level, and on the physical level we'd notice an increase in numbers of demons/degrees of demonic activity, etc., without necessarily knowing the reasons behind it. As I stated earlier, there are lots of reasons for increased weirdness in the area, and a Hellmouth moving into the city shouldn't really jump to anyone's mind right off.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
That's great :D I just didn't want to start rubbing people up the wrong way when this all starts. It's been a while since I posted my initial outline, even *I* had forgotten some of the things I'd mentioned.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
So just a general question/message about season 5....
Where is everyone? Is it just me or have the boards been pretty dead recently?
Is everyone still out there planning on writing for this season? I think its going to be a great season and im really excited to read stuff from everyone! (Not to say I Dont love Lou's Ally's and Adam's stuff cause I do!)
So I guess the point of this post is to try and stir people into writing! I dont know if im speaking for everyone but Im eager to read posts from the rest of you!
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
Yeah, I've been busy doing school-writing, but as of my last final paper I'm back to the fun writing. I'm writing in bulk. I won't have much Benji stuff for a while, but...um, other stuff soon.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
It seems like I have been going from one craziness to the next this last 6 months. but things are more-or-less lettling into a predictable routine which means it may be possible to eke some time from the schedule. First priority is re-doing LABN's site.
Then H and I need to do some writing for W&H and Morgen Wahl.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
you know mine but nite shift when im not sleeping im eating or working
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
I haven't an actual life, but RL is keeping me away.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
I'm a terrible person. All the usual excuses abound. Work, kids, holidays, a certain delightful man who's made my life wonderful, but also consumes most of my free time. Alas, the truth is, I fell behind, and then further behind, and now I can't seem to figure out how to get going again. I'd love for Daye to make a comeback, but I've left her hanging a while. Any ideas? Do you even want me and my emotionally stunted witch around anymore?
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
Are you kidding? Course!!! You and that certain delightful... (do I have to say it?) Ok, Robin too :D
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
I still need to get something up for Adam. I have a huge OL life...might have to start letting go of my other games...*sigh*
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
You are too kind and forgiving Ally my dear, but I shall take ruthless advantage of that fact. This weekend, I'll try to play catch up on the board and figure out where and how Daye might fit back in. I make no promises for Robin though. He does his own thing and I've promised myself not to browbeat the poor man.
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
As if we'd let you escape so easily, you should know better by now Kris :P Maybe while you're at it you could maybe pick up things with Taryn in SW too.... :wink:
Just a thought, I may as well be completely brazen. :twisted:
Season 5ive Big Baddy Pants
Shoot her with the bow and arrow if she refuses, sweetie! :)