Submitted by Logan on Tue, 08/02/2005 - 23:03
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Now that season 5 is about to be underway, we need to think up the villains who will be part of the bad group (AKA The Black Hats)
I was just speaking with Dave and he suggested they should be specifically chosen for their abilities to defeat 1 (or more) specific White Hat (Maybe that didnt come out clear so ill give an example)
That Anti-Magic Demon would be a good pick to deal with the witches of the WHs...
Ok, now that thats established, we figured we'd leave the doors open for people to write up the profiles. So basically, post here if you have an idea for someone (Or even better, if you have the profile, post it here so everyone can review it). I got an idea or two, and ill be posting soon
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Season Five: Black Hats
Remember, too, that these should be more than "monster-of-the-weeks" types.
Ask yourself...
Why are they fighting the White Hats?
What is the argument that the mysterious "benefactor" of the Black Hats used to get them to join?
Who are they designed to counter?
Where do they stay when they aren't out?
Think about personality quirks, motivation, merits (yes, bad guys do sometimes have redeeming features) and powers.
If they are a demon, are there more of them? Do they have a society or culture?
Are they "generally" bad or is this one particularly bad?
Try approaching this from the point of view of "If I were to play a bad guy vs the white hats what kind of PC would I play?"
Season Five: Black Hats
I was a little confused when I first read this, and after talking with Ally I realised I wasn't the only one.
Well basically I though the whole Black Hat, Zayn, Horsemen of the Apocalypse idea was for SEASON SIX. I think someone (maybe Dave I can't remember) had mentioned an old friend that would come back to the White Hats to help them with the Hellmouth crisis - and that this would lead into season six.
I actually thought we were doing the whole 'Bloody Mary, childhood nightmare etc' storyline - that the relocation of the Hellmouth - which only a few peeps know about (and that Dave has a subplot runnning with too) was also the main BB as it will spew up a load of nasties and create all havock in LA (like the Basement Monster).
I don't know if we've become a bit confused (well it has been a while) or if I've majorly over looked something important, but I thought I'd mention it.
Season Five: Black Hats
Actually, I just found where the Black Hat proposal came up. But um, maybe we could run through exactly what we're thinking of doing this season, there is so much in the BB discussion thread that it's kinda mashing my head. (I mean I know what I want to do but I'm not sure if things have changed)
Perhaps we should go over things once more to lock it down and make sure we're all on the same page?
Is anyone else feeling confused? I feel confused :oops:
Season Five: Black Hats
Yep, I'm confused too. I said to Dave when I read this that I thought we were doing the Hellmouth thing for S5 rather than the Black Hats, and he told me that the BHs would be drawn by the Hellmouth (as opposed to the manifestation of Bloody Mary). *shrugs* I dunno, I quite liked the Bloody Mary ideas, but those discussions were so long ago that I've forgotten what was decided. Actually, I don't think anything ever really was worked out in concrete.
Perhaps a little more working out of exactly what we're aiming for in S5, so we're not all chasing each others' tails?
Season Five: Black Hats
I think so too, Heather.
Actually, I’m almost finishing the Big Bad thread, and as Lou said, there is a lot there. So I'm still confused. However, I'm going to quote the little bits that I found more enlightening. Maybe it'll help us as a start for this new discussion.
Another quote:
[hide="Spoiler!"]Of course, we now know that the organizer of evil is Zayn. I don’t know if we know who this mysterious ‘Ally’ is… although I'm sure it’s not me. :wink:[/hide]
Jeje, thinking how Alessa - and all of us - ended up getting to LA, that doesn’t sound that strange. The Hellmouth wouldn’t only draw bad demons, right?
Season Five: Black Hats
On other subject, I already posted a NPC Profile for Bloody Mary (written in collaboration with Meghan) and its counterpart Iemanjá
Season Five: Black Hats
Ok so have we decided? Can we start going along with it, or are we still unclear of the season...If we ARE still unclear, we should start discussing exactly whats going on, because this season needs to start
Season Five: Black Hats
Oops, sorry about that spoiler bit, i thought that was of public knowledge. :oops: :oops: :oops:
Season Five: Black Hats
I thought this had been decided months ago. The plotline (as I outlined it above - subject, of course, to the normal variations that happen in a season) is what I thought we had more-or-less agreed upon.
The Black Hats will need to be introduced as as the season progresses, so we need to start early deciding who they are and how the fit in.
In the meantime the sub-plot of the effects of the Hellmouth needs to be advanced.
Child murders, mysterious happenings, and Bloody Mary sightings and all.
Season Five: Black Hats
Well Shaun knows that I liked this character cos he already talked to me about it hehe, and can I just say ROAWRRR!!! Julian McMahon!! Do we HAVE to kill him or can we lock him up in Kate's basement at the end of season to use as our personal... um, servant. Yes that's what I mean he can do dishes and stuff :wink:
Well I feel inspired now to write my own BH... Toodle-oo!
Season Five: Black Hats
I like both characters, and i really like the actor choices. For the first, methinks I agree with Lou :lol:, and the second is such a good fit--hope the ol' Iron Vamp doesn't get defanged like Dragonetti did...
Season Five: Black Hats
If Lou gets to keep Julian McMahon in her basement, I get to keep Cillian Murphy in mine :P
Quick badguy question for the sporadic player
Alright, I'm hoping I've found a niche here on LNG-- villain. They don't pop up as much as good-guys, and drop out quite frequently only to return later on in the series. Given most of you are aware of my posting availibility, would a villain char (not necessarily Black Hat) be more suited to my posting capacity?
If my track record proves me too unstable, understood. I'd just like to be able to maintain a char here without my blank spots being too much of an issue.
Season Five: Black Hats
Not necessarily - there are other good-guy options.
Any number of professions - mercenary, watcher, snitch - demon types, or even human roles could work. The key is to create someone who can plausibally interact with the PCs on a semi-regular basis, but not have to always do it.
An example of someone like this from FL might be Vic Meranti when we get to 2010. He's there to pass on information, and do some things on his own. Vic could, with a little creativity, play a vital role in a storyline - even a very active one. But he doesn't have to. He's perfectly plausible to stick to the sidelines, and hardly do anything at all, as well.
That's the guidelines for what kind of character I would recomend if you want to be sporadically active but still a player. The key is to be able to alter your level of activity as the need or desire arises.
IMO, someone more 'neutral' - not necessarily a villain - probably serves this role best, especially in LABN. You might, for instance, be a demon who hears things but doesn't necessarily care if the vampires are feasting on humans, or the White Hats are eliminating them all, as long as you get to live in peace.
Heck, you could even be a good-guy who's just not part of the WH.
Season Five: Black Hats
I'm liking the neutral spin. I've a concept developing rather quickly-- a mnemovore/sin-eater demon, that would certainly fit well in that mold. I'll get my ass off the Black Hats thread and onto the PC proposals.
Season Five: Black Hats
Would anyone object to Dr. Bloodmoney (the "Zombie Priest" who made Adam Young the way he is) joining the side of evil? Vested interests and all that?
Season Five: Black Hats
Sounds good. :D I'm sure a Zombie Priest would make an excellent foil for our resident necromancer, Marcus - that is, assuming Marcus is on the side of the White Hats, not the Black Hats... :P
Season Five: Black Hats
Zombies/Voudun in LABN:
WAAAY Back in season one there was a Houngan (Voudun Priest) who cast a spell for Kane to open a shield paced over one of the Shards by Sorrow. He had no name.
Ohenewaa was a voudun priestess who tried to possess Tash and ended up dead (but Tash had her memories) which Marcus' assistant Onyx now has. Doppleganger Tash created a zombie for sexual pleasure (eww). Evil Tash used her knowledge to create a massive Zombie army for Delancre.
Parasol went on a quest seeking knowledge from the geechee women (another name for Voudun) and the Cote d'Armes (a bone box).
There are some sources for you to explore if you want to tie Adam and Dr. Bloodmoney into the mythos.
Season Five: Black Hats
matt and ally had an idea of useing james alter ego as a black hat i would love the chance to od that + i think i found a way of joining it in with my overall story for my charators i was just wondeirng if there was still space on the black hat team for a heavy handed thug being that there is allready a vampire and alleady muscel ?
also this season i want to mainley work on my npc's i want to give them more depth becuase ive seriousley missed out on alot of things i wnated to add for them so for Vince i was thinking perhaps he would ally with the white hats to fight the black hats if this is ok with everyone i was thinking this becuae basicley vince was a street kid and children being murderd on the streets of la is going to touch home with him and give him a good reason to be a "good guy" for a while at least
Season Five: Black Hats
Sounds good - go for it, Jamie. :)
Season Five: Black Hats
cool i like like getting the blessing of the "family " before i go do soemthing other wise ya know ti migth get wacked
Season Five: Black Hats
Wow, he's kind of a bastard love-child of Maggie Walsh and Dr Moreau (or maybe Dr Frankenstein). He'll make a great foil, not just for Adam but for Marcus as well.
Season Five: Black Hats
Thanks. Thanks also for fixing up the profile a bit.
Season Five: Black Hats
Er, actually that was me. I was only gonna add a picture but I decided to do a bit of jujshing too. :D
Season Five: Black Hats
Ah. Well, thank you then. Maybe I shoulda asked...
Season Five: Black Hats
All right, I'm putting my ass into gear. I expressed before that I wanted to be a part of this storyline, but school distracted me. But now that I'm starting to write again over at ff.net, I'm going start catching up on my posts here (I mean it this time! Scout's honor!)
Season Five: Black Hats
Hi guys
Iv been thinking about bring Alice (Alicenoko) back as a black hat. Alice has alway been grey on what side she is on in the whole good vs evil thing. Tash and Victor both kinda acted as her life line to the lightside of the..... Backspace,Backspace,Backspace. sorry wrong game. Anyway..
Im sure Alice has Nikolai in her sights as the man that had to stake her friend Tash.
I just wanted to throw it out there to see what you think and see if you remember me )
John
Re: Black Hat material?
How did the Order find out about the Hellmouth? We have determined that only a God-like power is capable of locating it precicely or even detecting it. Its presence can only be deduced by the presence of chaos around it.
May I suggest that his solo mission is to monitor the re-emergence of a rival power - Wolfram & Hart - rather than the Hellmouth in order to discover why they have a sudden renewed interest in this town.
Season Five: Black Hats
And on that note, I'm now mad at MSN. It apparantly has decided to delete several of my contacts.
While I already have some plans for Nik, I wouldn't mind a second threat - it would, in fact, be a good way to distract him from the first. And it does make sense.
We probably need to chat about trying to kill each other in more detail. :)
Re: Black Hat material?
Sounds good :)
Season Five: Black Hats
Well, either that or we'd have to bump heads a bit more. I've had a small subplot set up with the Ministry and Sunnydale since they purchased the land for re-development back in uh, was is midseason three? So long ago... :? Anyway, yeah, if you (or anyone else) decides to do some actiony thing in Sunnydale for Season Five we should probably discuss it first so that we aren't treading on each other's toes.
Season Five: Black Hats
Well that can work--the Order was mostly going to be background in my stuff, but I'd be glad to help out or get together about it. And I guess the Pathfinders group is just one of the hundred other orgs that the Order has its slimy fingers on, so there needn't be any disjunction.
Season Five: Black Hats
Louisa and I did a post a while back. The Ministry has let the Order in on at least some of what it knows - selling Alaric on the idea of bringing about a grand conflict - though not necessarily all of it. With the two groups as long-time rivals to each other, it's entirely possible that, since the Ministry knows, the Order recently stole that information.
Season Five: Black Hats
Which begs the question: "How did the Ministry find out?" Do they have god on the payroll?
Bear in mind that Cups & Pentacles (who are quite high-order demons - on the order of Archangels or demi-gods) took months to locate the Hellmouth.
Season Five: Black Hats
I think, basically, with the Ministry the thought that we had was that they're a centuries-old conspiracy employing a ton of scientific and magical means. They would have been looking for years, trying to pinpoint a local, but even they have only a general idea.
We would, basically, be talking about an agency spending a very large amount of its resources to try to get an idea of where the Hellmouth is relocating to.
Season Five: Black Hats
Exactly. Actually, I explained all that in my loooooong Q&A section in the Season Five BB thread. That it's not a matter of people in the Ministry going 'Oh there's a Hellmouth' but years and years of researching prophecy and consulting seers and whatnot.
And like Adam said, there IS a link between the Ministry of Magic and The Order as set out in Midseason Three. I just thought it would be nice if instead of me writing my part with the Ministry, and Kent writing his with the Order, and Dave writing his with Cups and Pentangles - we could work together. That way we won't be writing the same things and pissing each other off :wink:
I just thought we could do with a bit of communication so that we can sort of, divide up duties.
Season Five: Black Hats
This is an aside...based on several ideas.
1) The Ministry knows that the Hellmouth is settling in LA
2) The Order knows it becasue the Ministry knows it.
3) W&H knows it becasue they got there first
What if...
Season Five isn't about the White Hats at all but about the Hellmouth and the Chaos it breeds.
What if...
Instead of concentrating on the White Hats and their problems with random acts of Hellmouthy goodness in LA and their struggles with the Black Hats we concentrated on how the Three factions mentioned above deal with the new "King of the hill" situation in LA.
W&H has capped the Hellmouth in the interest of perpetuating its chaos factor without exposing it to the constant threat of hainvg bad guys trying to "open" it and good guys trying to "close" it all the time. They want it kept on the QT.
The Order of Valor would love to see it fully opened in the interest of a massive accelleration of their agenda. Whatbetter to bring about a golden age of demonic/human cooperation than a full-blown helmouth openeing?
The Ministry would like
nothing more than to control the pent-up energies of the Hellmouth and turn them to their own uses, perhaps even find ways to duplicate them or divert them.Since I said "what if" I thought this would slide, but H seems to think it won't. The Ministry wants to amkes sure the Heallmouth is controlled in a way that does not present a danger to others.This means that these three Massively Powerful Factions will have agents in L.A. trying to:
1) Locate the "focal point" of the Hellmouth (where the Seal of Dalthazar is placed)
2) Liberate/capture/destroy the place and set up their own shop.
So let us step back and look at our Season Five Plotline with this in mind...
Lets set aside the whole Bloody Mary/Blue Lady storyline for a minute...(perhaps we can use it in a mid-season or work it in in another way).
12 weeks (3 months) for a regular season
Week 01: Chaotic demonic events are on the rise. The White Hats are up to their armpits in badness.
Week 02: The Order of Valor offers to "help" the White Hats to curtail the worst of the problems peacefully rather than just killing the demons and moving on...their additional manpower makes it more efficient to respons but does not seem to make a dent in frequency.
Week 03: The Ministry also offers resources to do the same. The WH become suspicious about all of the "help" and so they ask why?
Week 04: Fuck! A Hellmouth, where is it? Oh Shit it's under the W&H building
Week 05: Negotiations with the Hellmouth's babysitters (W&H)
Week 06: The new WH "helpers" start to make noises about taking out W&H as the cause of the problem. But the WH have another problem they have been targeted by a group trying to destroy them.
Week 07: First evidence of an organized evil...first hear the term "Black Hat"
Week 08: Black Hats confront a few "straggler" White Hats and whup em good.
Week 09: The Order and the Ministry offer to take out the BH in exchange for a combined attack on W&H. (as if!)
Week 10: W&H lays out its "Hellmouth Policy" for the WH and does something (Not Sure What) to basically compell them to comply with the stalemate.
Week 11: The WH's new allies drop them like a bad date.
Week 12: The BH start to attack in earnest...leading into Midseason Five and setting up for a moredetailed Season Six with the Double-agent White Hat.
Season Five: Black Hats
I love it. Multi-seasonal plotline!
Hmmm. You know... a couple of us really need to talk if we do that. To figure out just which one of us *is* the Double Agent.
*Adam dresses up like Conrad Green*
W&H already have at least one thing on us: the paperwork to the Foundation. They probably have all sorts of neat little clauses that Victor put in there as safeguards against it falling to evil, which they have the knowledge and no-how to wrangle into stripping the Foundation of its resources. We don't need someone to tell us that them getting all of the foundation's goodies would let all sorts of crap happen.
But that won't be enough: the Ministry and Order would just try to out-lawyer them. We would get a legal stalemate, with the Foundation's books being constantly updated.
Which gets us to something else.
Who are the Black Hats in this scenario? What do they want? Well... we have a potential organiser for them in the Iron Vampire. A vampire whose history, as it presently stands, makes him a rather misguided Prussian patriot. He's one of the closest things we get to a good vampire, because to his view, he's come here for a new chance.
There's a power vacuum - a big one - that he's been alerted to. At last, in Los Angeles, he can do what he never could in Germany: bring about the birth of a new order.
A new order which wouldn't mind the Hellmouth on the QT. All it does is make LA in to a giant recruiting ground for someone who has found a way to not only make vampires work together, but demons as well.
We wouldn't mind a QT Hellmouth either. We'll know damn well and good that a collapsed/closed Hellmouth is going to take out good portions of LA. Last time that happened, we renamed Sunnydale to Craterdale. Not an option. Opening it... well... that would be a Bad Idea (tm).
W&H issues a simple ultimatum: there are two smaller, organised groups here. Either of them could be the dominant, local power in LA. All three of these guys are more than bit players; they have a global framework, but even the global players need local allies.
W&H isn't really bothered by who ends up on top. It's just that the Iron Vampire, they know, won't stop with LA. He'll stop with blah blah blah blah blah, and in the proccess would risk the Hellmouth becoming too well known, so that someone keeps trying to open/close it. We're the better choice for W&H.
But we're not the only one. And if they can't get Number One on board, they'll settle for Number Two if the price is right.
We really don't want them backing the Vampiric Nationalist.
Do we?
Season Five: Black Hats
I've just finished reading the entire 'Season 5 Big Baddy Pants' thread - all 9 pages of it - to refresh my memory on all this stuff.
Lou's basic premise was that the Ministry wanted to ensure that the Hellmouth was damped down as much as possible - they're not interested in the power that goes with it, since they're fine the way they are.
Wolfram & Hart also want to keep a lid on the thing - the main conflict between the Ministry and W&H will come when neither side trusts the other to do the job properly.
The Order of Valor is unconcerned with this, since they just want to unleash hell...
That still lets us follow, more or less, the 12-step plan outlined above, with perhaps some minor adjustments.
The Ministry's need for secrecy may compel them to withhold the information from the White Hats for a bit longer than three or four weeks, but in that case then the WH's can be beset by Black Hats before learning about the Hellmouth. So that would just mean rearranging weeks 3 & 4 to perhaps weeks 6 & 7 or so. Of course, there's nothing stopping us from writing NPCs involved with the Hellmouth (W&H, the Ministry and/or Valor in any combination) during those first few weeks before the White Hats are let in on the secret.
Season Five: Black Hats
[hide]Ummm...isn't that Zayn'Jae Vex or am I on a completeley different topic? It was my understanding that she got the Black Hats together to keep the White Hats busy whilst she worked her mojo with the Hellmouth or whatever in time for her appearence as the BB for the next season.[/hide]
Season Five: Black Hats
Yeah thats what I thought it was also (See Above post)
Im really confused now about this season. Like I thought [hide]Zayn was the secret big bad, and now she isnt even around....[/hide]Someone wanna clear this up?
Season Five: Black Hats
Well, I just thought that the way it was originally mentioned, even as a 'what if', was that those really were the Ministry's motives and that it would just confuse people if the Ministry was depicted as suddenly wanting to use the power rather than damp it down. Mind you, there's nothing to say the characters won't think that the Ministry might be wanting to use the Hellmouth for their own nefarious purposes.
I think the essential thrust of this plotline is that there are several groups, some of which actually have the same agenda (more or less) in regards to the Hellmouth. But none of them trust the others to do it right, so each wants to deal with it themselves. Ultimately, however, the White Hats aren't up to the job themselves and have to choose between three custodians. [hide](Or maybe four, if Zayn comes into the picture this season.)[/hide]
I might take this opportunity to suggest a slight amendment to Dave's proposed order of events:
12 weeks (3 months) for a regular season
Week 01: Chaotic demonic events are on the rise. The White Hats are up to their armpits in badness.
Week 02: The Order of Valor offers to "help" the White Hats to curtail the worst of the problems peacefully rather than just killing the demons and moving on...their additional manpower makes it more efficient to respond but does not seem to make a dent in frequency.
Week 03: The Ministry also offers resources to do the same. The WH become suspicious about all of the "help" and so they ask why? But nobody's saying - just yet.
Week 04: The WH have another problem - they have been targeted by a group trying to destroy them. First evidence of an organized evil...first hear the term "Black Hat".
Week 05: Black Hats confront a few "straggler" White Hats and whup em good.
Week 06:The White Hats demand to know what the hell is going on. Someone finally relents and tells them. (Perhaps we have the appearance of the other ally (the one Matt and Shaun referred to) at this point - it all depends how complicated we want this to get.) Fuck! A Hellmouth, where is it? Oh Shit, it's under the W&H building.
Week 07: Negotiations with the Hellmouth's babysitters (W&H)
Week 08: The new WH "helpers" start to make noises about taking out W&H as the cause of the problem.
Week 09: The Order and the Ministry offer to take out the BH in exchange for a combined attack on W&H. (as if!)
Week 10: W&H lays out its "Hellmouth Policy" for the WH and does something to basically compel them to comply with the stalemate.
Week 11: The WH's new allies drop them like a bad date.
Week 12: The BH start to attack in earnest...leading into Midseason Five and setting up for a more detailed Season Six with the Double-agent White Hat (and/or the other ally referred to).
Season Five: Black Hats
That's pretty much what I'd planned - although now with Tash dead I'm not sure there's anyone left to remember what happened to Jade when she was kidnapped by Gemmel. I was thinking that could crop up as an added reason to distrust them, but then there's always Jack's involvement which I've never really had time to develop.
And I agree what Heather said earlier too, I think the Ministry would withhold information from the White Hats for as long as they could.
Season Five: Black Hats
so the bloody mary/kids death thing is dumped or left till mid season
Season Five: Black Hats
Right...okay...so no Bloody Mary/Blue Lady anymore. No mysterious ally that only me and Shaun seem to know about hiding behind the scenes for their own appearence in Season Six.
Who's this Double-Agent White Hat? This is the first I've heard about it. Is the majority of the Black Hat stuff being moved to midseason/season six? Who's organising them now? What BB if any is being carried over to season six?
In short - wtf is going on?
Season Five: Black Hats
*points to post listing the 12 steps*
That's what's going on. The Black Hats are still being organised by the same person. That person can still become involved as an ally of the White Hats - until we realise they're the BH leader.
As for the WH double agent, you need to read John's post more carefully. :)
In short, the same stuff is going on as you already knew was going on, just with the addition of the double agent.
Season Five: Black Hats
ok so Zayn is the one gathering the BHs, but is she after the hellmouth now for some purpose also? man talk about complicated lol
Season Five: Black Hats
She's doing whatever is was you were expecting her to be doing in Season 5. I have no idea if she was going to be interested in the Hellmouth or not, which is why I put the option. If you don't want her to be, then she's not. Simple. :)
Season Five: Black Hats
hum well no bloody mary that kind of fucked up my plans for this season but yea i can still go with a kids being attacked thing myself throu without mary being envolved :wink:
Season Five: Black Hats
She was never the original Double Agent, so its not clear... Originally Zayn was supposed to be. In fact, way back when, the story was supposed to be Zayn showing up when the BHs starting causing shit, and she helps out the WH until they realize she is actually the one behind it all. SHE'S the one who organized the BHs and SHE's the double agent. Somehow, people seemed to have forgotten this along the way, and it seems that this entire plot (along with Bloody Mary, which like Jamie said screwed up some people's plans now) has just been set on the back burner. Now W&H seems to be a big factor in season 5, and it was never (or rarely) even discussed with anyone.
Like I dont mean this post to sound aggressive or whatever, but I know me, as well as alot of people are really confused as to how all of a sudden this all happened.