John and I had this conversation tonight...
John: What is a Demon?
Dave: Anything that isn't from Earth. From another dimension.
John: So Oz is a demon, right?
Dave: Uh, No. He's an Angel.
John: He's not from Earth. He's from Heaven.
Dave: Well, yes, but...
Here is the way I explained it. God is on Earth. He banished everything that was against him in the Fall. Anything that does not work for God (the resident "Power that is") is a demon.
Demon and Evil are two mutually exclusive concepts. All that is Evil is not a demon and all that is Demonic isn't Evil. In Fact, all that is Demonic may not neccessarily be agasint God either. It just means "Not originally of Earth"
Angels and God (Logos, The Idea) are all native.
Just thought I'd share this stuff cause it seemed interesting.
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What is a "Demon"?
God is on Earth? So there is no Heavenly dimension/world he inhabits seperate from Earth.
What is a "Demon"?
Something else has been bothering me and i'm sure this subject has been approached many times before but i just wanted to start it off again. What is evil? How do you define evil? Once again this approaches the questioning of the line between good and bad. That which is bad is evil, but how do you define it?
I mean vampires are evil. But what about others, like Delancre or Lynkes? I've written about Lynkes as he and the other Macabres are evil, but all they are doing is fighting a war. Together they like one another, but outside their species they hate the Koolangs for the history. So are they declared evil just because they are fighting for a cause they believe in? Or is it because of their bloodthirst? That even though the Koolangs don't fight back they still hunger to kill them?
What is a "Demon"?
Evil as a concept is relative. Its anything that is morally questionable, so it varys depending on your morals.
If Murder is in your eyes amoral, the Murder is Evil ect...
Just the way I see it.
What is a "Demon"?
Ooo, deep thinking. That gets me confused and scared. So, I'm just gonna resume my duties as a good Catholic girl (wow, I never thought I'd say that) and stay out of this one...
What is a "Demon"?
There yet again rises another question, in WHOSE eyes? Again i'll pick at the same example, in the eyes of the species of Macabres, it seem immoral to them for the Koolangs to steal their powers, and moral to them for killing them. Perhaps same as moral for killing someone who has commited murder. Does that make the Macabres evil?
This has to be looked into as next season the question of good/evil, opposites, will matter a lot
What is a "Demon"?
Evil is relative to every person/being because we all have differing moral vaules. So basicly the person examining the situation determines for themself wether or not the acts commited are Evil or not.
And for your Example:
The Macabres view their actions as Moral, they are defending themselves.
However the Koolangs likely see the actions of the Macabres as Evil because they are being killed by them.
What is a "Demon"?
Sorry, the philosopher in me has to come out and play. Let me qualify this by saying that I am a hardcore ethical realist - I believe that there is a definate 'good' and 'evil' out there which exists irrelevant to our desires. It is possible for an individual or a society to be dead wrong about morality, myself included.
Having said that, I have yet to find the slightest good reason to accept any form of subjectivism aside from a few cases (i.e. 'I am having an experience as of the colour red'), or at least no good reasons with any logical force to them. From the fact that we disagree about right and wrong it does not follow that there is no moral truth outside of our particular point of view.
It takes more than mere disagreement to show that ethics or morals are a matter of personal taste. Much of this, I think in part, comes down to a failure to keep our moral concepts straight from personal preferences.
Ways in which 'Good' is employed:
-An action or object is an effective means to an end, or is effective at accomplishing some end. (A good hammer)
-Worth having all-things-considered (a moral good)
-Something which I have a preference to happen (my stress fracture healing)
-Something charecteristic of the function of a thing, especially an example of excellence (a good example; a good speech)
Ways in which 'Bad' is employed:
-An ineffective action or object (a bad hammer)
-Worth avoiding all-things-considered (an evil)
-Something which I have a preference to avoid (getting a stress fracture)
-Something which is not charecteristic of the function of a thing, especially an example of inferior quality (a poor example; a bad speech)
I use bad above because it is often used as a synonym for evil, though perhaps with less force of moral condemnation than evil.
A consideration for ethical realism is the idea that we do have universally accepted acts that even the philosophers will not disgree on being evil like, oh, I don't know, torturing babies for fun.
What is a "Demon"?
That works for the real world. But in a world like LABN where dimensions and worlds entirely removed from our own exisit by different natural laws.
Good and Evil (or so I feel) must be subjective.
If a human tortures a baby it is wrong because their is nothing in our nature to suggest we should do this, but if a demon has a natural impluse to say play with his food, and lets say he eats babies is it truly an Evil act for him to do so? I wouldent belive it is. His nature dictates that he eats babies and something in his natural psycology tells him to torture the baby just as something tells a human to make a mashed potato fort.
Just the way I see it.
What is a "Demon"?
Actually my ethics (or perhaps metaethics) apply equally well to the Buffyverse as they do to the real world - and does hold that ethics are non-subjective. The motto is to 'live in accord with nature,' the natures in question being both human and the divine (cosmic) nature.
Of course, this does murk the waters considerabley as it now becomes hard to morally fault a vampire for, say, feeding on humans; or to say that this is bad in the sense of morally bad (though it is certainly bad in the sense of something we prefer to not see happen).
But the point that can be raised here is that an ethic of 'live in accord with nature,' when consistently applied to non-human agents, does not make ethics subjective. In fact, one could argue that a vampire with a soul like Angel was in fact behaving immorally by refusing to drink from a human under any but the most extreme circumstances, for he was denying his nature.
What is a "Demon"?
Forgive me Adam but what you appear to be saying is that when applied to the buffyverse your ethics (which are absolute and unchanging) results in Moral relativism based on 'species' rather than culture. Now I could be misintepreting what you're saying but...
On the Angel thing I suppose you could argue that Angel is being immoral by not drinking human blood but I wouldn't. Afterall Angel shows that vampires don't need to kill, or even feed on, humans. They do so merely because they enjoy it. Now I'll go out on a limb and suggest that using another sentient species as a food source when there is another viable non-sentient source available merely because you prefer the taste strikes me as immoral. (but maybe I just dislike the thought of being food...)
What is a "Demon"?
I actually don't view it as relativistic at all. If it were *truely* relativistic, then even "live in accord with nature" could change as the point for ethical reflection. But the Meta-Basis for ethics does not change on my view, though the application might depending upon your nature.
On Angel, one thing to keep in mind about him is that he is not in the natural state for a vampire. Vampires don't normally have souls. It can still accord with the nature of vampires to feed on humans, even though there is a non-sentient food source available.
Of course, it's true that I wouldn't be fond of being food for a vampire as well. But really why should it be thought of any differently as, say, a lion who eats a human?
What is a "Demon"?
Ok, I'm going to stay out of the meta-ethics part of it, but as for that last bit... The difference is that the lion is non-sentient and therefore his choices are limited to base instinct. Whereas a vampire is sentient and can therefore exercise a greater degree of choice.
Thus, while a lion will simply see a slow-moving, unprotected animal that could serve very nicely as prey and reacts accordingly, a vampire will see a thinking being that it nevertheless chooses to prey upon.
What is a "Demon"?
Assuming, of course, that vampires actually have free will. One of the whole arguments about Spike and his ability to reform (something we need free will for) was whether or not absent chip-in-skull he would return to feeding off humans. We saw him at one point try to test the theory, and finds out that nope, it's just Buffy he can now harm.
Vampires may not have the will to choose in the sense that we usually like to assign people in this kind of case. Of course, it may be that humans lack free will as well.
What is a "Demon"?
Okay... how about Harmony? No chip in skull there :D
I think vampires have all the friggen free will they want! Which is probably half the reason why they go about on massacres and what not; cos they can! They know they can survive on any other blood (angel, spike, yadda yadda) but why the hell should they give up feeding on humans? It doesn't hurt them! And it's just so friggen fun! (ps. i'm looking at this from vampire point of view) They LOVE it! Why drink pigs blood from a fridge when you've got all those free happy meals walking about!
It is a matter of choice, there.
Hehe, and who's to say vampires are evil at all? or any other demon for that matter! Who's to say an angel is good? The only thing that apparently makes someone what they are is more what they do. Even from a human's perspective looking at a vampire: the deed of them killing and draining our blood is evil (to us) therefore we classify them as evil! But what if they do something good? How, even to us, can they BE evil, and do a good deed?
Sorry :) but to me it's all a matter of perspective and choice, no matter who you are. Dependant on that, you can do an evil deed or a good deed, but BE neither.
What is a "Demon"?
Right, very good Amanda. Spike and Angel are unique and difficult to use as definition for the Vampire as a whole, but Harmony is an excellent example. Although she was selfish and sometimes mean spirited in life, ultimately we can say she was basically good. She only wanted to fit in. As a vampire, the same holds true. She was bad when she thought it was necessary to be a part of things, when she believed it was the right way for a vampire so to speak, and now that she has been told a better way, she is good. She controls her urges to do evil, to feed on people.
Oh, and by the way, I just want to point out that Delancre is evil...very, very evil...and the reason for that should be obvious. He understands right from wrong, and he makes a conscious choice to pursue his own desires no matter the cost. In Delancre's mind, all live only to serve his needs, his plans.