Having just read Dave's new update on the front page I feel I have to voice my opinion on the 'open property' concept (basically because it asked us to if we had a problem with it). Personally I don't think this is a good idea, namely because it's removing the ownership of characters from the players themselves (which I think is wrong).
Though it might not be evident at the moment I think this will lead to a whole load of problems and even conflict between writers if someone places another players PC in a situation that they're not happy with. If it's a case of just needing someone along for an adventure, fine - but I still think that approval should be sought from the PC player first.
Also, won't this just eradicate the need to write collabs? And if we do that then what's the point of being a writing community, we may as well just write what we like and ignore everyone else.
I think there is maybe a positive side to the concept, if you just wanted, say Eric and Sydney along for an adventure with Tess and couldn't get hold of those players to collab, but I only think it would work if such stories were limited to action and didn't involve any major changes to the character's world.
And I still think that consent should be sought from the player. It's only fair.
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New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
Ok for the record I'm not utterly against this idea.
However.
I do have some concerns. Basically while I have no problem letting other people write my character I'd like to know what's going to happen to them before hand. Not the little incidental details but the major events and if necessary be able to veto the idea.
Simply put I want to be able to have this conversation...
Player A: Wouldn't it be really cool if Mel did...
Me: No
I want to be able to stop something I really dislike before it gets to the board because if something I really do hate about my character does go up without my permission I'll retcon it out of existance. Even pull a Bobby Ewing if necessary
Just my two cents
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
There is another problem that I'd like to point out: some of us do a rather fair amount of pre-planning. Now, under this idea, people don't have to even get in touch with me. Since we use real-world times, this can lead to LOTS of conflicts and more extreme continuity problems.
An example would be that two people could easily make a post at a point where we have a direct contradiction. For instance, if I wanted Syd to go in gun's blazing and put that up at a point where Louisa has something ready to go up where she gets a pacifist injection. Extreme example, yeah, but it's the kind of problem that can be led to.
While we would be free to write up continuity to explane out-of-character or erratic behaviour, having to do so should not be an issue. This could easily spark some creative flow, but I don't know of anyone who has said to me, at least, that they want to open up their character - or would fail to be offended if I just went and started writting things.
At the very least, if we're going to do something like this, you should have to clear it with the primary player - both the initial idea, and perhaps even on a post-by-post basis, depending on the authors in question.
There are other problems with this. I'll let Brian Clevanger (of 8-Bit Theatre fame) speak on this, but I think his thoughts may well apply here. Particularly on how this could force us to start editing and re-editing the present and past of our characters.
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
I don't want to eliminate the idea of character "ownership" with this idea, or to eliminate collabs. Rather, I am hoping that not needing to have a player present will draw the characters closer together by making them more accessible.
There will be times when a collab is the only way to go:
- Character A wants Character B to do something contrary to their character.
- Character A wants a romantic encounter with Character B
- Character A wants Character B to have a critical part in Character A's background
And there are others. But that is a short list.Actually if a player wants to say "no" then they should. I agree that there should be a review before something is posted. But what I want to eliminate is the need to have the other player present for the creation. This will (hopefully) streamline the creative process.
It is an experiment for the purposes of this 7 year time-jump. Let's see how it goes and then we can look back on it and find what worked and what didn't.
ADDED: In light of Brian's article (which I had read before, but it was good to read it again) think of this as collectively we are writing the past of our characters. The game will move forward from 2010. This is more like world-building where we are writing the background for our PCs for the last 7 years.
[/]New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
I think the main problem that I have, though, is a combination of remarks (let's put aside, for the moment, this comming as an announcement instead of a proposal).
That's one of the major ones, because there's an implication here that I don't like. It implies I can't veto before the post or series of posts is even written. It also implies that whatever someone comes up with and posts, we're stuck with. Even the most out of character actions.
Which then need to be explained somehow, or "ret-con eradicated."
As a point Louisa raised when talking with her as well, something to note: nobody knows a character as well as their own creator. There are a lot of things that don't make it on to the gameboard, but are still a part of their past. And with this kind of thing, the worry is that someone can do one of two things: (a) write you into a corner and you're stuck with it, (b) write some experience into your character which can take you in a direction you don't want to go.
Why mention (b)? Because if we're stuck with the experience, that's going to have an impact on the character. Even Sara doesn't passively accept every event that happens to her as just happening. Things get incorporated into character and change. There may well be experiences which I just don't want to be stuck with.
Here's the other one:
That, at least to some of us, seems to imply giving up characters.
Also, as a note: we've been doing something like this for a while. Some posts are done in draft-back-and-forth form - the very first post with Talhu and Victor (anyone remember them?) was done that way, and I know both Heather and Dave, and Matt and Ally have done it as well. Most recently, the Lianna/Zod post was a result of edit/send.
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
I dont think that Dave is considering that people write for other chars without any kind of interaction with the writers.
As Adam said, I've done it time and again when writing Alessa/Chance and Dave wrote Alessa a couple of times too. Of course, prior to posting these pieces, there was the step Robin mentioned: "wouldnt it be great if..." with an affirmative answer AND afterwards the approval or editing of the original author.
If those are the conditions, I dont have troubles with anybody writing any of my chars.
Besides... i'd need some help with filling those seven years for Tess...
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
In a comic book company (which was the example) it would be like that. In the game it wouldn't. I'm afarid I wasn't clear on that. But I did want to imply that once posted it was going to be set in stone. And that this isn't the same as a collab where you are the only one putting words into the character's mouth. I wouldn't do this for just any group of writers, beleive me. I trust you all to not fuck me over.
Nor am I implying that you need to just roll over and expect the worst. Do you really think that any of your fellow writers are going to do something so drastic with your character that you'd want to throw out the baby with the bathwater? Are you that pessimistic?
This is an experiment designed to stimulate creative growth and character interaction. And while I placed it as an "announcement" it isn't set into stone just yet. Nor will it be. I don't run these games, I guide them. I throw things out for discussion and if everyone wants to do something else, then by all means do that. I just thought I'd shake things and see what happened.
It isn't. You retain "creative control" of the character. Remember that the other wiriters have to let your character leave the post exactly as they had came into it. They can't change your character. They might (and again it is a matter of trust) make them say things that don't ring "exactly" true because you didn't write it. Or They might get involved in an action that you might think "I'd have handled it differently" but it won't be negative, and it can't change the character.
Think of it this way...
If you were asked to write an X-Files novel and decided to place it between season 4 and 5 (where Mulder and Skully start to get chummy) would you then write a steamy love scene? You know one is coming...
Would you write about Mulder's longing for her secretly perhaps? Would you give him a limp from a gunshot wound? Nope (well maybe some longing secretly, but that's acceptable becasue it is part of the character).
And on top of all of it, I am also saying (and this was stated specficically) if you don't want to do it - if you don't trust the other writers to not fuck it up - then say no and hold all of your characterizations for yourself. You character wouldn't appear without your prior approval and it would always be written by you.
there is a great site for this type of discussion http://creativecommons.org. I strongly suggest looking into it for everyone (wherther you have a stake in this or not).
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
Actually this WASN'T stated specifically which is probably why everyone is jumping on the breaks. Rather the following-
was the final statement with a small comment at the end that if people weren't happy they should say something, but there wasn't actually anything that said you could opt-out of this if desired.
But just to add something constructive, it seems to me that if (like Ally said) we're just writing for other character in their absense like we do already, and Dave has added that we SHOULD get prior approval from a player to use their character - then it doesn't seem like a whole lot, if anything, has changed here :?
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
When Dave wrote this FL proposal up he read it out loud to me. Now I've gone and read it for myself, and I'm still wondering just why everyone's getting into a tizz about it.
It's a suggestion for a way to deal with 7 years of backstory. Given the low probability of the players all getting together and being able to write 7 years of story without having it take 10 years to do it, it seems to me this is a good way around the issue.
I'm seeing lots of comments about how people are afraid of having to deal with stuff people will write for their characters that they won't want. Like what? Do you seriously think I or Robin or Ally or anyone else on the board is going to take one of the other players' characters and start screwing around with them willy-nilly?
To use Ela as an example, to get to the year 2010 will involve interactions with Sol and Mel for certain, and a likelihood of several other characters. Rather than have to try to arrange a bunch of collabs, it would be much simpler to catch Robin, Kris, etc. on MSN and talk about what Ela's doing generally, then use Mel, Sol, etc. in cameo appearances to flesh out Ela's development during that time. Does anyone seriously believe I would suddenly transform their characters into something bizarre?
Likewise, I'd trust you guys not to have Ela suddenly turn up as a gung-ho fighting machine or anything like that. You know her general demeanour and what her powers are. She could easily be slipped into somebody's story about a huge battle, hanging around the fringes and helping the wounded. It would be no skin off my nose if I didn't actually write it myself.
I don't imagine anyone would want to write a long, in-depth story on somebody else's character. But in 7 years there will definitely be times where other characters need to be at least mentioned. If I were to write about the next couple of years for Ela, I'd first check with everyone else to see what sort of general things they'd be doing in that time, and fit in my story accordingly. Hell, we already know some of the major events of that time. We already know what we can and can't do with the world in general. It's just a matter of treating any other characters with respect and making sure they follow that same general line.
And as Dave DID say explictly - any character so used should wind up at the end exactly as they were going into it. So what's the issue, guys? Stop panicking and think about who we're dealing with here. None of us are irresponsible, especially with other people's property.
For the record, anyone who wants to include Ela in anything they're thinking about for FL - go for it. All I ask is a brief heads-up on roughly what she'll be doing and what year it is, so I can incorporate it into her background. I trust each of you to be a good surrogate parent for her.
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
But in all fairness, Dave ALSO asked that if there were any problems or queries they should be voiced. Which they have. Personally I DON'T think Dave's writing was clear, it also wasn't a suggestion - if it was surely it should have been on the forum rather than in a news thread.
I think that by talking about it here, and people's concerns we've cleared out alot of the stickiness around this subject. I don't think people are getting in a tizzy, we just want to know what this concept is supposed to mean so that we can decide IF we want to go along with it.
So what's the problem with people talking about it, we're only doing what Dave asked us to do in the first place. You can't ask for feedback then kick people in the head when they give it. :evil:
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
*blinks* Kick people in the head? If you're referring to my post, I fail to see where I do that. :?
I didn't say it shouldn't be talked about. I was saying that there seems to be a lot of panic about it. I see a lot of assumptions in the posts above that it's a 'done deal' and that their characters are suddenly going to be warped into something strange. I don't see that happening at all.
I was trying to inject a little reality check into a lot of scare-mongering. People won't just write any old thing about other people's characters, I'm sure.
You should know Dave well enough to know that he won't just issue a decree. If this wasn't just a suggestion, then howcome he put in that note at the bottom? He was trying to get some creative thinking going, to kick things in the arse a little. At least he's managed to achieve that much, even if the angst level was entirely unexpected. :wink:
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
Or would they......
Who would have known Sydney, Mel, Sol and Tess turned out to be bionic femme bots created by prototype to serve as sex slaves for his perverted teenage fantasies... :D
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
...I've told you to stay out of my head, Shaun :P
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
Yeah, I think that's something that confused us. I know that I (and I think Louisa and Robin as well) thought you were proposing that we run this period like a comic book company actually does.
Hi, my name is Adam. I don't believe we've ever met before. :)
More seriously, no, though it is still a conern that a lack of co-cordination could cause problems. So long as we're still communicating, and not just able to plop in a reference without checking what someone is up to at a certain time, those kinds of problems should be minimised.
Final note. As Louisa said, there are some things that weren't stated specifically. Some confusion is understandable, which now seems to be a bit cleared up.
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
Wow...I never have time to check in and when I do...everyone's stopped making nice. What's going on, you guys? We are all friends, remember? And we are all used to working and writing together. I figured that 7 years of Sol's life was going to be glossed over and I'd hit the high points in retrospect mostly. A bunch of stuff happened and she's certainly not the same character, but I can't imagine that it should be a problem if other people need to use her for any reason. As long as nothing earth shattering happens or I have an idea of what is going on, it should be fine.
The key here is, and this may come as a shock to you all, but I trust you. You are my friends, and I know you would never do anything hurtful with my characters because you don't want to hurt me. I would offer you the same courtesy and you should expect it from me. There's no reason to assume the worst, and it's insulting to do so when it comes to people you've become close to and spend so much time with.
I'm sure this is all settled and I'm coming in too late to have been of any help, but still I feel the need to throw in my two cents worth now and again. And that is that we are friends and we can trust each other, so everyone should just breathe.
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
I think it's exactly because we ARE all friends that there has been so much tension. I know for a fact that *I* wouldn't want to get into an argument with someone because they had put my character into an awkward situation and that's not because I don't trust you guys, I do, and many people have wrote for Kate in collabs when I've had to leave.
It was the idea of 'Open Property' characters which had me worried, because I didn't like the notion of removing the ownership of characters from their players - but this has already been addressed and won't be the case - I'm happy. We've also decided that BEFORE anything is posted that includes another PC, then it should be approved FIRST - I'm happy with that also. :D
From looking at the majority of concerns, that was the particular bone of contention. We just wanted to make sure that if someone wrote for someone else's PC they ASKED first - something which wasn't on Dave's original statement and obviously wasn't implicit enough otherwise there wouldn't have been so many concerns with regard to this in the first place. I certainly never thought 'oh you guys are gonna screw me over, I don't trust you' - in fact it never entered my head. It was more that I'm a control freak and I don't like relinquishing that control unless I can have at least some say in what's happening. :twisted:
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
You, a control freak? Never.... :wink:
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
Hard to believe I know :P
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
What I love about all of this is how it comes down to "situation normal." :)
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
Did you have any doubt? We are friends, after all. :D
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
Or so you think.....
"Pssst Adam, I heard Louisa's trying to secretly take over the game and and Heather is cheating on Dave with Ally....yeah thats what I heard...spread the rumors MUAHAHAHA"
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
DAMN!! Heather... we were discovered!!
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
That bastard Shaun - he promised not to tell so long as we sent him the videos... :P
New Game Rule - Writing other player's characters
Im afraid those videos are being sent to the wrong audience if you think I take any interest in that ;)